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Co lze považovat za tradici? Rozdělení luků v tradiční lukostřelbě.
n Publikováno: Pondělí, 09.10. 2006 - 06:04:09 Od: Lucínek

Kydliman nám odeslal(a) následující článek: "Původně jsem chtěl reagovat na diskusi s tématem tradiční lukostřelby. Protože jsem se nějak rozepsal, přijde mi vhodnější svůj názor prezentovat jako článek.
Co si představuji pod pojmem tradiční lukostřelba, jsem už psal na fóru dříve. Protože to tady bylo nakousnuto, tak se chci vyjádřit k tradici jako takové a k rozdělení luků na soutěžích v "tradiční" lukostřelbě.


Jak dlouho musí něco trvat, než se z toho stane tradice? A jak se to bude vyvíjet? V prostředí euroindiánské komunity se na tábořeních střílí z "primitivních luků" co pamatuji (tedy od r.1987). Na společných letních táborech se pořádají i soutěže. Lze tohle už považovat za tradici tradiční lukostřelby v ČR?

Dovolil bych si takový malý příklad toho, jak se může taková tradice vyvíjet. Tento příklad jde snadno aplikovat i na lukostřelbu.
Představte si partu lidí, kteří si v hospodě vymyslí závod v jízdě na trakařích o lahev slivovice. Maník naloží svoji babu na dřevěný trakař, oba budou oblečeni v místních krojích, a vyrazí od jednoho konce vesnice na druhý. Protože je to psina, příští rok si to zopakují. Další rok se přidají další kámoši a příbuzní. Čtvrtým rokem se závod dostane do povědomí v celém kraji a začnou se hlásit i cizí lidé. Pátý rok o tom udělá televize reportáž do Dobrého rána. Šestý rok se do organizace závodu zapojuje radnice a objevují se první sponzoři a máme tady tradici. O několik let později je akce známá po celé republice, vytvořila se ženská a dětská kategorie. Závodníci v honbě za vítězstvím dělají, co můžou. Osy kol jsou osazovány kuličkovými ložisky, dřevěná kola nahrazena galuskami, rámy trakařů jsou odlehčeny na nejvyšší únosnou míru, ženy - matky od dětí, vyměněny za čtyřicetikilové královny krásy. Holinky za tretry a z kroje zůstaly jen zástěry pro formu. A co hlásají novinové titulky? V Horní Dolní tuto neděli proběhl již dvacátý ročník tradičních závodů v běhu s dřevěným trakařem O velkou cenu pivovaru XY. A co na to ti maníci, kteří byli u zrodu ? No přeci vytáhnou trakaře, namažou osičku kolomazí, ženy naškrobí všech osm sukní, zabalí buchty a hurá na další ročník. Proč? Protože je baví jezdit na trakaři a nemusí ani vítězit. Tolik k tradici.
Dál se pokusím přiblížit, jaká je moje představa o rozdělení luků do kategorií na soutěžích. Jsou soutěže, kde je úplně jedno, jakým lukem budu střílet a jak budu oblečený. Viz třeba Lazluk, i když já osobně bych si k leginám a válečné košili nevzal sportovní luk. Všichni se dobře baví a ještě vyzkouší, co všechno který luk dokáže. Pak jsou soutěže, které jsou spíš takovým přátelským setkáním lukostřelců, mají jistou tradici, a protože už je člověk zná, vezme si takový luk, aby si pořádně zastřílel a byl shopen dosáhnout podobných výsledků jako ostatní. Třeba Zlatý šíp. Tady zvolím holý luk, pro dané disciplíny bude dostatečně výkonný a ovladatelný. Pak tu máme soutěže s ambicí, jako např. Mistrovství republiky v bojové a lovecké lukostřelbě. Tady už nastupují borci a je jich hodně. Je to závod se vším všudy a tady vidím potřebu vyrovnat trošku šance, tudíž nemíchat hrušky s jabky. Nejrozumnější mi připadá rozdělení, tak jak to navrhoval Jarda Kejval, tj. holý luk, tradiční luk, primitivní luk (zjednodušeně). Otázkou je, jestli to jde organizačně zvládnout.Pak jsou tu soutěže v historické lukostřelbě ( Keltové, středověk, indiáni atd.), do toho spadá většina soutěží, přidružených k nějaké "dobové"akci. Soutěžící jsou oblečeni do odění odpovídajícího danému období a kultuře. Tady bych dovolil použít luky, které vypadají jako luky používané v té době, bez ohledu na to, z čeho jsou vyrobeny. Podle mě je jedno, jestli je historicky vypadající luk kompozit dřeva a laminátu, nebo kompozit z tropických dřev. Šípy v tomto případě již pouze dřevěné s péřovým opeřením. No a na konec zařadím LH soutěže. Byl bych rád, kdyby se do této kategorie daly zařadit například turnaj na Wothanburgu a Ilburský turnaj. Oblečení by mělo být odpovídající době, na kterou jsou účastníci nebo akce zaměřeni. Luky, šípy, tětivy a ostatní doplňky čistě dobové a z přírodních materiálů, pokud možno vše vyrobeno tradičním způsobem. Takto zaměřenou soutěž by bylo, podle mého názoru, dobré dotáhnout do detailů. To znamená nepoužívat např. na terče plasty, papír a pod., alespoň ne viditelně, a vyvarovat se rušivých civilizačních elementů, jako jsou auta, moderní stany, nedobově oblečení organizátoři atd.
Tohle je z mé strany trochu kritika do řad organizátorů Ilburského turnaje, protože nechápu jejich postoj ke vztahu lukostřeleckého vybavení a historického odění. Přijde mi hloupé trvat na historických lucích i šípech a přitom povolit nehistoriské oblečení, jako měli (pánové prominou) např. vloni Hombre a letos Myša.

Děkuji za trpělivost a prosím nekamenovat.
Josef Štol (Kydliman) "
 
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Související odkazy

· Více o tématu Názory a polemiky
· Další články od autora Lucínek


Nejčtenější článek na téma Názory a polemiky:
Co lze považovat za tradici? Rozdělení luků v tradiční lukostřelbě.


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Re: Co lze považovat za tradici? Rozdělení luků v tradiční lukostřelbě. (Hodnocení: 1)
Od: Soron (soron@seznam.cz) - Pondělí, 09.10. 2006 - 10:09:23
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S docela velkým zájmem jsem si přečetl tento článek, a musím se přiznat, že se konečně snad dobereme nějakých upřesnění a konečně se budeme orientovat v kategoriích. Kydliman to popsal docela přesně a hlavně tak, že je to srozumitelné snad každému :o)) (jako třeba i mě). "Holý luk" je mi jasný! "Primitivní" (snad) také! Jen trochu váhám u luku "Tradičního", podle toho, co jsem si přečetl v předešlém článku to chápu tak, že "tradiční luk" je vlastně i nejmodernější luk s vyhadly, vybavený nejmodernější technikou a vyrobený z nejmodernějších materiálů, protože se z něho střílí FITA soutěže po celém světě také již několik let?! Jak se vlastně rozdělují luky? Podle typu a délky "tradice" soutěží, a nebo podle "dobovosti" té které akce? Věřím, že kdyby se člověk "probojoval na FITA soutěže s "klasickým Anglickým" lukem (byla by to asi rarita), tak by se nic nedělo. Ale když přijde někdo na "určitý" typ soutěže oblečen jinak, a s lukem který neodpovídá danému charakteru soutěže, je něco špatně! ... a klidně si mě ukamenujte. Soron
Re: Co lze považovat za tradici? Rozdělení luků v tradiční lukostřelbě. (Hodnocení: 1)
Od: Josh (20maine@seznam.cz) - Pondělí, 09.10. 2006 - 13:24:32
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No akorát bys do té FITA soutěže musel přijít oblečen dle pravidel FITA, jinak by tě asi vyvedli.
Re: Co lze považovat za tradici? Rozdělení luků v tradiční lukostřelbě. (Hodnocení: 1)
Od: dhs0709 (mbtservice08@gmail.com) - Sobota, 22.06. 2013 - 08:23:09
 
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Re: Co lze považovat za tradici? Rozdělení luků v tradiční lukostřelbě. (Hodnocení: 1)
Od: Josh (20maine@seznam.cz) - Pondělí, 09.10. 2006 - 13:16:33
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Kydliman: Tak pod tohle bych se mohl podepsat, snad bych jen netlačil tolik na to LH, aby se z toho nestala akce pro pár masochistů. Ať chceme nebo ne, toho času není zas tolik a splétat po nocích tětivu z přírodních materiálů s nejistým výsledkem rozhodně nehodlám. A že by některý organizátor kvůli turnaji vršil zemní terčový val, o tom si rovněž dovolím pochybovat. Ještě k té stylizaci a vybavení. Pokud se rozhodnu hrát si na indiána nebo anglického lukostřelce, tak je myslím mou morální povinností vzít si alespoň trochu odpovídající nádobíčko, abych nemátl případného diváka. Indián nebo Angličan se sportovním lukem je totéž, co Jan Žižka s lehkým kulometem. Na akcích typu Lazluk nejde o body, takže by se nikdo neměl bát, že se shodí, když nenastřílí. Spíš by měl být hrdý na to, že i s "primitivním" vybavením je schopen zasáhnout cíl, i když ne třeba každým výstřelem a samé středy. Možná by v takových případech stálo za úvahu, řešit oděv z opačné strany než dosud. Máš dřevěný longbow, měl bys vypadat tak či onak (k dispozici období řekněme 1300-1550). Máš sporťák nebo nedej bože olympijský luk, džíny nebo maskáče, ale v žádném případě leginy a válečná košile nebo skotský kilt.
Re: Co lze považovat za tradici? Rozdělení luků v tradiční lukostřelbě. (Hodnocení: 1)
Od: Kiraya (unicorn.white@seznam.cz) - Pondělí, 06.06. 2011 - 12:07:40
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Naprosto souhlasim, že článek je napsaný opravdu skvěle jen ty tětivy by byly problém. Když pominu pracnost celé výroby, tak je s nimi docela problém s malou výdrží a nejistým výsledkem. Doufám, že každý alespon trochu rozumný lukostřelec dodrží alespon nějakou dávku, řekněme stylu, a k určitému luku si vezme odpovídající oděv.


Re: Co lze považovat za tradici? Rozdělení luků v tradiční lukostřelbě. (Hodnocení: 1)
Od: Griffin (ladislav.krumpolec@weber-terranova.cz) - Pondělí, 09.10. 2006 - 21:20:55
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Článek se mi líbil, rozhodně rozvíří slušnou diskusi. Rád přidávám pár vlastních postřehů: 1. Přirovnání s trakaři sedí. Jsem ten, který zjistil, že existuje trakař až "z novinových titulků". S úctou naslouchám těm co "naškrobí všech osm sukní, zabalí buchty a hurá na další ročník." 2. Rozdělení luků na holý, tradiční a primitivní rozumím. U skupiny holý a tradiční bych se přikláněl k akceptaci "Definice kategorií podle EAA 3-D" viz - www.archery3d.cz/svaz/pravidla.htm. Asi to i odpovídá tomu, co deklarují výrobci jako Kýzl, Matyášek, Peroutka a další pod pojmem tradiční luk a odpovídá to i mezinárodnímu pojetí. 3. Mám jen jednu připomínku nebo podnět do diskuse. Mimochodem sám nevím, k čemu se přiklonit. Je to tato věta článku: "...použít luky, které vypadají jako luky používané v té době..." Zde bych chtěl předem upozornit na to, že můj názor je ovlivněn tím, že neumím luk vyrobit a ani tuto ambici nemám. Střílím z luku a luk si kupuji a nehodlám to měnit. Váhám mezi těmito alternativami: a) Ano. Tento přístup otevře dveře spoustě lidí, kteří dnes čelí vstupní bariéře primitivního luku, který je několikanásobně těžší sehnat. Nebo lépe řečeno, sehnat takový ze kterého se dá rozumně střílet. Když už se v tomto prostředí pohybujete tak znáte několik "lukařů" - ale co na začátku. Laminátový TR-LB nebo TR - RB je poměrně snadno a rychle dostupný, stačí pročesat internet. b) Ne. Výroba kvalitního celodřevěného luku je nádherné řemeslo. Znám hodně lidí, kteří střílí vlastními luky. Řada z nich už jich udělala několik, někteří desítky - jedinci stovky. Spousta lidí to neumí a nechce se to učit (např. já) ale přesto nucena, aby se mohla soutěží účastnit si tento luk koupit a tím podpořit výrobce a tuto nádhernou ruční práci. Pokud odpovíme společně s variantou a) ANO - Nezabijeme tím do velké míry i ty krásné luky, které všichni, kdo přispěli dosud do diskuse vlastníte a někteří i vyrábíte ???? Není lepší tuto vstupní bariéru udržet a krásnou řemeslnou práci tím podpořit ??? I za cenu, že nás "neumětely" to bude bolet v peněžence??
Re: Co lze považovat za tradici? Rozdělení luků v tradiční lukostřelbě. (Hodnocení: 1)
Od: PeZ (pez.pez@tiscali.cz) - Úterý, 10.10. 2006 - 00:55:40
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Něco ke kritice Ilburku. Článku bych vytknul jen jeden lapsus, a to odlišení lukostřelby a její prezentace. Chápu postoj ilburských i postoj wothanburských pořadatelů které sázíš do jedné řady ale jejich motivace je odlišná – na WB můžeš podle stávajících pravidel střílet z ohradníku, pokud bude umně obalen, aby vypadal jako historický luk, nebo z tradičního luku, ale musíš vypadat jako z okavypadlý románec, na ilburku můžeš vypadat jako poslední keckař ale musíš střílet primitivním lukem – který přístup je z hlediska lukostřelby opravdovější? Já to rozsoudit neumím, ale se svým lukem střílím v kostýmu i v džínách (ale nejčastěji v montérkách :-) ). Něco k pojmu Primitivní luk. Pojmy holý luk a tradiční luk pominu, protože jsou pro mne nezajímavé a byly asi sdostatek vysvětleny. Primitivní luk bych asi rozjemnil na další kategorie, abych v závěru oponoval Tvé touze po LH akci. První podskupinou primitivního luku (nebo poslední skupinou tradičního luku?) by mohl být luk historického vzhledu. Sem bych zařadil jako vlajkovou loď laminátové obalované luky (turecké, mongolské….) u kterých jen po zevrubné zkoušce zjistíš, jestli to náhodou nebyly „echt“. Jako druhá kategorie by mohl být primitivní luk podle amerického pojetí, což je dřevěný selfbow nebo maximálně dvouvrstvý dřevěný luk a možná i obalovaný luk, pokud je dělaný původními postupy z původních materiálů, pomocné materiály jako lepidla, tětiva a nátěr ale mohou být moderní. No a královská kategorie po které voláš je experimentálně archeologický luk. Četl jsem článeček o tom, že jít do lesa, podseknout obsidiánovou sekerou stromek a obsidiánovým nožem vyřezat luk, který vypadá přesně jako nález a s tětivou z přírodních vláken vystřelit obdobně vyrobený šíp je úžasně autentický zážitek - ale že by se v tom dělaly soutěže tam nebylo.


Re: Co lze považovat za tradici? Rozdělení luků v tradiční lukostřelbě. (Hodnocení: 1)
Od: Jaroslav Kejval (jaroslav.kejval@mujes.cz) - Středa, 11.10. 2006 - 06:43:53
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Myslím si že Kydliman velice trefně a logicky nadhodil velice dobré téma protože v tom se tady v ČR opravdu míchají hrušky z jablkama. Vždycky jsem zastával názor že vymýšlet něco vymyšleného nemá smysl proto je můj názor ten že rozdělení luků musí být i tady v ČR naprosto zřejmé. Proto : Kategorie holý luk - to budou všechny luky které jsou vyrobeny v sériové výrobě tedy tak že mají buď kovový nebo plastový střed luku a do něj vsazena ramena. To jsou většinou všechny sportovní luky i tzv luky začátečnické. Mají zakládku šípů plastovou nebo kovovou z podpírajícím raménkem a mají i boční odpruženou zakládku. Luk nemá žádná mířidla a doplňky. V této sekci mohou být i zařazeny kladkové luky u kterých se nebude používat žádný zaměřovače a hlavně vypouštěče. Myslím si že hodně lidí kteří si koupili luky kladkové v obchodech s loveckými potřebami do dnešní doby ani neví že by mohli mít vypouštěč ale přesto těmito luky střílí a chtějí třeba i závodit. U těchto luků je jedno jaký typ šípů bude střelec používat (dřevo, hliník, karbon) Tradiční luk je vše co bude vyrobeno slepením ze dřeva a kompozitů (laminát) atd a je jedno jestli luk bude mít okno nebo ne. Taky je jedno jestli je skládací nebo pevný. Je ale nutno luky ještě dělit na lonbow a recurve. Longbow je specifikován tak že tětiva se dotýká pouze dvou míst na ramenech luku (špičkách). Recurve luk je takový kdy tětiva se bude dotýkat více míst na ramenech luku (špička a rameno). Používá se pouze dřevěný šíp a je jedno jestli bude mít plastová kormidla a nebo plast končík. Důležitá je dřevěná násada. Primitivní luk je vše celodřevěné bez nějakých "příměsí" a je jedno jestli si výrobce u luku udělá okno nebo né. Jsou to prostě luky které si ten který střelec ve svém nadšení vyrobil ať už jakkoliv a v jakékoliv kvalitě z prkna nebo tisu či hickory. Je jedno jestli bude mít na koncích reflexi atd. Šípy opět dřevo bez selekce jestli má self nock nebo plast končík, jestli bude střílet s plastovými kormidly je to jeho věc. Takto si představuji že by mělo být rozdělení i na všech soutěžích. Myslím si že to vůbec není při pořádání soutěží náročné. Pořadatel vyhlásí soutěž a řekne bude tam ta a ta kategorie. Holt bude muset mít více cen :-)). Jedině tak nebudou někteří střeli a nadšenci flustrování protože vždycky budou soutěžit svý se svými a nebude to mišmaš. Díky tomu všemu ale může také dojít k tomu že spousta střelců se takto zaměří na více kategorií. Nevidím důvod proč bych nejel na závody a vezl si sebou třeba 3 luky řezené do různých kategorií a chtěl soutěžit ve všech kategoriích. Díky tomu všemu se také nemůže stát to co popisuje jako příklad se závody trakařů že se najednou na startu objeví místo dřevěných karbonová kolečka s manekýnkou. udrží se tak určitá tradice která je rozdělena v kategoriích. V ČR máme díky tomu že tady lukostřelba nikdy nebyla prezentována jako tradiční sport obrovský deficit. Informace o střílení zůstalo pouze na sportovní lukostřelbě a to díky své omezenosti zůstalo uzavřené v sobě.
Re: Co lze považovat za tradici? Rozdělení luků v tradiční lukostřelbě. (Hodnocení: 1)
Od: Siegfried (siegfried@barbarossa.cz) - Pátek, 13.10. 2006 - 11:50:34
(O uživateli | Poslat soukromou zprávu)
 
Celkem to chápu jen my vysvětli přesněji co rozumíš pod výrazem okno :))
Re: Co lze považovat za tradici? Rozdělení luků v tradiční lukostřelbě. (Hodnocení: 1)
Od: Jaroslav Kejval (jaroslav.kejval@mujes.cz) - Pátek, 13.10. 2006 - 12:21:27
(O uživateli | Poslat soukromou zprávu)
 
Okno je vybrání na luku které ti přibližuje linii šípu k linii luku. Většina dřevolaminátových luků to má.
Re: Co lze považovat za tradici? Rozdělení luků v tradiční lukostřelbě. (Hodnocení: 1)
Od: Siegfried (siegfried@barbarossa.cz) - Pátek, 13.10. 2006 - 14:12:49
(O uživateli | Poslat soukromou zprávu)
 
Hmm u primitivního luku nebo jak se jmenuje ta kategorie nejvíce podobná historickému luku si nemyslím, že by to mělo být, protože to dává jistou výhodu. A mám dojem, že sem nic takového na LB neviděl :)) Stejně si nemyslím že by tam měly být plastové končíky... taky jsou jistou výhodou. Naopak bych neřešil hroty a ohledně kormidel nevím peří by vypadalo lépe, ale asi je to jedno. Jinak asi souhlas .)) to Admin: nestálo by za to tu diskuzi mít v diskuzích ? ))


Re: Co lze považovat za tradici? Rozdělení luků v tradiční lukostřelbě. (Hodnocení: 1)
Od: Mysa (msodja@seznam.cz) - Středa, 11.10. 2006 - 20:49:43
(O uživateli | Poslat soukromou zprávu)
Z celého srdce souhlasím a Ilburčanům se omlouvám ještě jednou. Historické kostýmy jsem měl sebou dva - kožich a mongolský vatovaný kabátec ale jelikož v sobotu bylo asi 40 stupňů musel jsem volit částečný převlek adamity. díky shovívavosti pořadatelů snad akce nebyla narušena. Považuji ji za jednu z nejzdařilejších svého druhu a doufám že budou další.Příště budu již řádně kostýmově vybaven, s řádným obydlím a přijedu na koni


Re: Co lze považovat za tradici? Rozdělení luků v tradiční lukostřelbě. (Hodnocení: 1)
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Re: Co lze považovat za tradici? Rozdělení luků v tradiční lukostřelbě. (Hodnocení: 1)
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